在靈感中翻譯佛法，在業力下努力微笑

明就仁波切：清明與安穩（上）

《獅子吼雜誌》2023.9.28專訪

In this exclusive interview, Mingyur Rinpoche tells Lion’s Roar’s Andrea Miller how he learned to befriend his anxiety. We all have an innate well-being, he says. And we can all experience it.

明就仁波切在這場專訪中，為《獅子吼雜誌》的訪談者安德莉雅．蜜勒敘說他如何與恐慌症成為朋友。仁波切說：我們每個人都有「內在本具的幸福感」（innate well-being）。而且我們每一個人都能體驗到。

Andrea Miller: You suffered from anxiety when you were young. What caused your anxiety, and how did you overcome it? 

安：您小時候飽受焦慮之苦，是什麼引發您的焦慮？您又是如何克服的？

Mingyur Rinpoche: I grew up in the Himalayas, a wonderful environment with fresh air and trees, but also a place with extreme weather. The snow doesn’t just come from above. It comes from every direction (laughs). Winds can be so strong that they shake the whole house. At those times, I would cling to a pillar to secure myself. This violent weather was one source of my fears.

仁波切：我在喜馬拉雅山長大，那裡環境優美，有新鮮的空氣與樹木，但是那個地方的天氣也很極端。雪不是從天而降，而是來自四面八方（笑）。風的力道強大到能搖晃整座屋子。每當遇到這種狀況，我就會緊抱著柱子來穩住自己。如此猛烈的天氣，是引發我恐懼的來源之一。

Another source was strangers. If somebody new came to my village, I’d get scared. If they came to my home, I’d panic. This was happening to me when I was around seven or eight. In a panic attack, my neck tightened, I couldn’t breathe well, and my heart hurt to the point I thought I was having a heart attack. 

另一個來源是陌生人。如果有陌生人來到我住的村落，我就會感到害怕。如果他們來到我家，我就會恐慌症發作。這樣的症狀，大概在我七八歲時開始出現。恐慌症發作時，我的脖子會僵直，導致我呼吸不順，接著心臟會痛到我以為自己心臟病發作。

The doctors said my heart was fine, so my mother suggested I learn meditation from my father. He told me that panic is like a storm in the Himalayas. The fundamental quality of the mind, what we call awareness or clarity or luminosity, is like the sky around the mountains. No matter how intense the storm is, it doesn’t change the nature of the sky. That’s the view.

醫生們都說我的心臟沒問題，所以母親建議我接受父親的指導，學習禪修。父親告訴我：恐慌症就像喜馬拉雅山的暴風雪，而心的根本自性，我們所謂的覺知、明性或明晰，就像籠罩群山的天空。不管暴風雪多麼猛烈，天空的自性都不會受到任何影響。這就是見地。

To practice, he said, don’t try to fight the storms. Try to connect with the sky itself, awareness itself. To do that, I started with breath meditation, sound meditation, and mantra recitation. Then, I began to welcome my panic attacks and apply the view and meditation.

他說，禪修不是奮力對抗暴風雪，而是試著與天空的本身連結，與覺知連結。為了能夠與覺知連結，我從呼吸禪修、聲音禪修和咒語禪修著手。然後，我開始歡迎自己的恐慌症到來，開始運用見地與禪修。

Did it take courage to speak about your struggles with anxiety?

您是在鼓起勇氣後，才說出自己與恐慌症的搏鬥史嗎？

In the Tibetan community it was not difficult, but I found it more difficult to communicate in the context of modern Western culture. I began to write my book in 2000. Back then, the thinking in the West was that if you’re having panic attacks, you’re weak and unstable. Scientists were still in the early stages of understanding neuroplasticity—understanding that your brain can change and that panic is not something that’s always there. It’s only a symptom.

在西藏的社群裡，這並不難，但我發現，在現代西方文化的環境裡，則比較困難。我從2000年開始寫書，那時候的西方社會認為：如果你有恐慌症，你就是懦弱且不牢靠。當時科學家對神經可塑性的認識還很粗淺，不太了解大腦是可改變的、恐慌症並非治不好的。而恐慌症只是一個症狀。

What motivated you to publicly share your experience with anxiety? 

是什麼促使您公開分享您的焦慮經驗？

I thought my own life example might benefit people with similar issues.

我覺得自己的生命經驗也許能幫助那些和我有同樣遭遇的人。

How did you become interested in science? Do modern science and Buddhism dovetail? 

您在什麼情況下開始對科學產生興趣？現代科學與佛教是否契合？

Since childhood, I’ve had a lot of interest in science. When I was about twelve, I met Francisco Varela, a cognitive scientist who came to learn meditation from my father. I asked him a lot of questions, about cosmology, stars, galaxies. Eventually, we talked about the brain. Much later, in 2002, I became a guinea pig in laboratories where scientists were studying meditation using fMRI and EEG.

我從幼年開始，就對科學有很大的興趣。大概12歲的時候，我認識了法蘭西斯柯．維瑞拉，他是一位認知科學家，在我父親的指導下學習禪修。我問了他很多關於宇宙、星辰、銀河之類的問題。我們最後聊到了大腦。多年後，在2002年，我擔任實驗室的白老鼠角色，讓科學家用功能性磁共振造影和腦電圖研究禪修時大腦的變化。

One of the great similarities between Buddhism and science is that the Buddha did not instruct us to simply take his word for it. He suggested we examine things carefully. Scientists do the same in trying to explore the nature of reality.

佛教和科學有很大的相似處，其中之一是佛陀未曾要求弟子全盤接收他所說的話。他建議大家凡事要細心檢視。科學家在探索實相自性時，也是這樣的態度。

In Buddhism, we have view, meditation, and application. Earlier, when I was talking about my father teaching me, I talked about view, that is, the Buddhist view on the nature of reality. Science also has a view, and it seems to be getting closer to the Buddhist view every time I talk to scientists.

佛法包括了見地、禪修、行持。我在前面談到父親的教導時，曾提及見地，也就是佛法對實相自性的觀點。科學也有見地，而且每當我與科學家對談時，便感覺科學見地和佛法見地似乎愈來愈契合。

Concerning meditation, science doesn’t have that built in, and the application in life is a bit different. In Buddhism, our application of view and meditation means we develop intentions like loving-kindness and compassion, practicing for the benefit of all beings. That’s not explicitly done in science.

關於禪修，這並不在科學的內涵中，至於生活中的行持（運用），兩者也有點不同。以佛教而言，將見地與禪修運用於行持中，指的是培養慈心與悲心等動機，為了利益一切眾生而修持。科學在這方面，則沒有這麼明確的方向。

From 2011 to 2015, you went on a wandering-yogi retreat. What inspired you to do that?

從2011年到2015年，您進行了遊方瑜伽士的閉關（wandering-yogi retreat）。激勵您這麼做的原因是什麼？

When I was young, in the evenings we would gather around the fire and hear stories, including stories of great Tibetan meditation masters, like Milarepa and Rechungpa, who were wandering yogis. These stories would sometimes make my grandma cry, because she was moved by the hardships they endured, and I would cry along with her. So, from early on I was inspired by the idea of the wandering retreat. 

在我小時候，大家晚上會圍著爐火聽故事，其中有些是關於遊方瑜珈士密勒日巴和惹瓊巴等西藏偉大禪修行者的生平。有時候，阿嬤聽著聽著就哭了起來，因為這些瑜伽士所承受的磨難讓她的心十分觸動。然後我會跟著一起哭。也因為這樣，我在很小的時候，就嚮往行腳遊方的閉關修行。

As my book did well, and I was doing a lot of teaching, it seemed many people were being helped, but I also felt a subtle pride coming out of that: I’m a famous teacher, best-selling author, abbot of a monastery. Therefore, I thought maybe I should do something different.

由於我的書銷售量不錯，我也教導了很多學生，覺得好像幫助到不少人，可是我也發現自己為此變得有一點點驕傲：認為自己是有名氣的老師、暢銷書作者、寺院的住持。因此，我想也許應該要做些改變。

How did you go about leaving everything behind, and what was that like?

您如何把一切放下？那是什麼樣的狀況？

One of the monasteries I lead is in Bodhgaya, India, where the Buddha attained enlightenment. One night while I was there, I snuck out. Once I got past the main gate, it was like I was in a bardo, an intermediate, nonconceptual state, a kind of shock. 

我負責的寺院當中，有一座位在印度的菩提伽耶，也就是佛陀證悟的地方。當我待在那裡時，有天晚上，我偷溜出去。我一踏出大門時，感覺好像進入中陰階段，處在一個沒有分別概念的過渡狀態，有一種驚嚇的感受。

Throughout my life, I’ve carried the title “rinpoche,” so people treat me like a dharma prince. They bow, give me nice food, great places to stay. Suddenly, I was out of that completely. At the same time, I was happy because I really wanted to do the wandering retreat.

我這一輩子，一直頂著「仁波切」的頭銜，大家視我為法王子，他們向我鞠躬，給我美味的食物和舒服的住處。這下子，我突然什麼都沒有了。可是，我又同時覺得很開心，因為我真的很想要進行遊方閉關。

Soon into the retreat, you almost died. How did that happen? 

您才剛開始閉關，就差點喪命。那是怎麼回事？

I only had a few thousand rupees, so after an overnight train ride, I was already low on money. Hanging around the train station, I found a map of India and saw that I could easily take a train to Kushinagar, where the Buddha attained parinirvana, nirvana after death. 

我當時只帶了幾千元的盧比，搭了一趟夜車後，已經所剩無幾。我在火車站內晃了晃，找到一張印度地圖，發現只要一趟火車，就可以輕鬆抵達拘尸那揭羅，也就是佛陀證得般涅槃的地點。

When I arrived, I checked into a cheap, broken-down guest house. This used the last of my money. Now, I had to stay on the street. At the spot where Buddha was cremated, there’s a stupa. Near that, there’s a small Hindu temple with a big tree. This is where I stayed. Outdoors.

到了拘尸那揭羅後，我找了一間便宜的破舊旅店棲身，剩下的錢就這樣用完了。這下子，我只能睡在街上。在佛陀荼毗的地點有一座佛塔。附近有一間規模不大的印度教寺廟，旁邊有一棵大樹，我就在那裡待了下來。露宿在外。

And I had no food. A few days before, when I still had a little money, I’d eaten at a restaurant. So, I went there, asking for food. They told me to come back in the evening. After closing, they gave me leftovers, which gave me food poisoning. I was throwing up and had diarrhea. For the next five days, I just drank water from a pump. Then, my body could not move. Slowly, slowly I felt that I was dying. Panic set in and lasted a few hours: What should I do? Maybe I should call my monastery and go back. In the end, I let it go.

我也沒有東西吃。過去幾天，還有一點錢的時後，我會到一家餐館吃飯。所以，我就去那家餐館要點東西。他們要我晚上再去。餐館打烊後，他們給了我一些剩菜剩飯，結果我就食物中毒了，上吐下瀉。接下來的五天，我只有從手壓泵浦打些水來喝。接著，我的身體完全動不了。慢慢地，點點滴滴地，我覺得自己快死了。我有點驚慌失措，如此持續好幾個小時，自問：該怎麼辦呢？也許應該聯絡我的寺院，打道回府。但最後，我［只是］隨它去。

That night, I felt like I was becoming paralyzed. I couldn’t see. I couldn’t hear. So, I began to do bardo practice, death and dying meditation. I experienced the dissolution of the elements in the body, the dissolving of the senses, but I continued to stay in awareness. Even though my senses were not there, awareness became clearer. Even thought—words and mental images—began to dissolve. Then suddenly I experienced a peaceful state of mind, beyond thought. No front and back, no time, just really present.

那天晚上，我覺得身體好像逐漸停擺了，我看不見東西，也聽不到聲音。所以，我開始進行中陰的修持，也就是死亡與臨終的禪修。我感受到身體大種的消融，感官的消融，但我一直保持覺知。雖然感官不再有作用，但我的覺知愈來愈清晰。然後就連念頭—文字與意象—也開始消融了。我驀然體驗到一種超越念頭的平和心境，沒有前後［的分別］、沒有時間［的分別］，就只是純然的當下。

I’m guessing I was in that state for maybe seven, eight hours. And in the end, I had the feeling that this was not the time to die. I needed to come back to help people. There was a feeling of compassion, which kept getting stronger. Then I felt my body again and slowly I heard sounds. I could see again, and the world seemed totally different. 

我猜那個階段大概持續了七、八個小時。最後我意識到自己的死期還沒到。我得要回來幫助大家。那是一種悲憫的感覺，而且越來越強烈，接著我再次感受到自己的身體，聽覺也逐漸恢復了。我又能看到了，且世界看來已截然不同。

Before, I’d felt the place was not safe. It seemed dirty, with lots of dogs, mosquitoes, and danger. Now it felt like home, safe. The tree was now what I called “the tree of love.” It was alive and so nice. I had appreciation, gratitude. I enjoyed the wind blowing on my skin.

在這之前，我覺得這個地方並不安全。看起來很髒，又有一大堆流浪犬和蚊子，危機重重。但現在感覺卻像家一樣安全。我所棲身的樹也成了我口中的「慈愛之樹」，生意盎然，非常美好。我有著一種欣賞與感激。享受著吹拂過肌膚的微風。

Then I felt thirsty, so I tried to get up and look for something to drink. I fainted, and someone took me to the hospital. I woke up with an IV tube attached to me.

接著我覺得口渴，所以試著起身找水喝，然後就昏過去了。有人送我去醫院。醒來時，身上插著一條靜脈導管。

That was fortunate! What a beginning! What was your retreat like after that?

太幸運了! 這個開頭真是不得了！在這之後，您的閉關是怎麼樣的情形呢？

Really good. I spent summers in the Himalayas and winters on the border between India and Nepal. I learned where and how to get food, and that when you love the world, it loves you back. 

非常好。夏天的時候，我待在喜馬拉雅山區，冬天則到印度和尼泊爾的邊界。我學會在什麼地方能找到食物，還有取得食物的方法。我也學到一件事，那就是：如果你愛這個世界，這個世界也會以愛回應你。

My only mission was to practice meditation. I began to feel very free, like a bird in the sky, freely flying. No need to follow a schedule. Not responsible to do this or that. The main thing was to practice.

我唯一的任務就是禪修。這時候的我，覺得非常自由，像一隻天空中的鳥，任意翱翔。不用按表操課，不用負責處理任何東西。主要的事情就是禪修。

Would you go on another retreat like that in the future? 

您是否打算未來再做一次這樣的閉關嗎？

No, I don’t have any plans to do that. I do want to do a solitary retreat in one place, but not a wandering retreat. In my life, I want to do two things: personal retreat and teaching.

不，我沒有這樣的計畫。我的確想要找個地方進行個人閉關，但不是遊方閉關。這一生，我想做的事有兩件，那就是：獨自閉關和教學。

Do you feel you need to do personal retreat in order to teach? 

您覺得自己需要進行獨自閉關才能教導他人嗎？

Yes, they benefit each other. If I do retreat, my teaching becomes more helpful to my students, and I myself learn more, which helps when I go back to retreat.

是的，這是相輔相成的。如果進行閉關，我的教學更能利益學生，我自己也能學到更多，這也有助於我下次的閉關。

Can you say more about how the wandering retreat changed your understanding of the dharma, your practice, or the way you teach? 

這次的遊方閉關對於您在佛法理解上、修行上，或教學風格上有什麼樣的影響，可否多說一些？

The wandering retreat was very special. When I almost died, it helped me understand what my father and other great teachers were talking about. Everything dissolved; only awareness was present, beyond concept. But at the same time, I knew what was going on. That was the breakthrough for my practice. On the rest of my retreat, of course, there were lots of challenges—no money, no support except what I could find on my own, things going up and down. All these challenges helped my practice. I was out of the cocoon. Surviving by myself, I learned a lot.

這次的遊方閉關非常特別。瀕死的經歷讓我明白了父親和其他偉大上師過去的教導內容。當一切都消融的時候，只有覺知還在，而且超越二元分別，而在那同時，我又能知道發生了什麼事。這讓我的修行有突破性的進展。我後來的閉關，當然還有許多挑戰：沒有錢，除非自己想辦法否則沒有支援，情況起起伏伏。所有這些挑戰都有助於我的修行。我走出了舒適圈，凡事都靠自己。我學到很多事情。

What is the role of the teacher or guru?

老師或上師，扮演什麼樣的角色呢？

It’s very important for the teacher to have some kind of realization on an experiential level so they can transmit fully, not just talk about it in the abstract. To choose a rather bad example, it’s like the coronavirus. You can’t get the coronavirus from a description or a picture in a book. You only get it from someone who has the virus. Some scientists say that when we’re learning, 93 percent of what we take in is based on nonverbal cues. That’s why connecting on the experiential level is so important. 

一位老師必須親身體驗到某種程度的了證，這一點非常重要，如此一來，他才能充分將它傳遞給學生，而非空泛地紙上談兵。用個相當糟糕的例子來說，這就像新冠病毒，您不會因為讀了書上對新冠病毒的介紹或圖示而染疫，只有體內有新冠病毒的人才會讓您染疫。有些科學家指出，當我們在學習時，我們所吸收的內容中，有93％來自非語言線索。因此，以經驗層次來交流連結，才會這麼重要。

But it’s not necessary to have the teacher always there with you. Some people nowadays think they have to have one teacher, who will tell them all the details. That’s also not necessary. Teachers are like flowers, and the dharma is the nectar. Once you take in the nectar, you put it into practice.

不過，不必總是要有老師在你身邊，如今，有些人認為一定要有老師教導所有細節，這也是沒必要的。老師就像花朵，佛法就像花蜜，一旦嚐到花蜜，你要做的就是實修。