WOMEN, BUDDHISM, AND EQUALITY WITH JETSUNMA TENZIN PALMO
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默的訪談：女性、佛教與平等
● A Skeptic’s Path to Enlightenment
● November 16, 2021
● 懷疑者的證悟之路
● 2021年11月16日
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo is one of the world’s most revered Buddhist teachers and one of the very first Westerners to become ordained into the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. She is best known for having lived in a remote cave in the Himalayas for 12 years. She spoke with us about the role of women in Buddhism from a historical and contemporary lens, the nature of mind, and simple, powerful ways to meditate in the modern world.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默為世上最受人尊敬的佛教導師之一，也是最早於藏傳佛教傳統出家的西方人之一。她曾在喜馬拉雅的偏遠山洞中居住了12年，並因此廣為人知。她與我們談論了古往今來女性在佛教中的角色、心的自性，以及於現代世界中簡而有力的禪修方式。
Scott Snibbe: I had the privilege of speaking recently with Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo, one of the world’s most revered Buddhist teachers, and one of the very first Western men or women to become ordained into the Tibetan Buddhist tradition. Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo spoke with me at length about the role of women in Buddhism, including the great contemporary and historical injustices female practitioners have endured. She also shared her wisdom on the nature of mind and simple, powerful ways to meditate in the modern world.
Scott Snibbe: 我近來有幸與傑尊瑪丹津．葩默交談。她是世界上最受人尊敬的佛教導師之一，也是最早於藏傳佛教傳統出家的西方人之一。她向我詳細介紹了女性在佛教中的角色，包括古往今來女性修行者所承受的極度不公。她還分享了自己在心性方面的智慧，以及如何在現代社會中進行簡而有力的禪修。
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo Bio
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默的簡介
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo is a fully ordained tibetan buddhist nun in the Drukpa Lineage of the Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism. She is an author, teacher and founder of the Dongyu Gatsal Ling Nunnery in Himachal Pradesh, India. She is best known for being one of the very few Western yoginis trained in the East, having spent twelve years living in a remote cave in the Himalayas, three of those years in strict meditation retreat and for having made a vow to attain Enlightenment in the female form – no matter how many lifetimes it takes.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默為藏傳佛教竹巴噶舉派中一位受具足戒的比丘尼。她是一位作家、老師，同時也是印度喜馬偕爾邦道久迦措林尼院的創辦人。她最為出名的是，身為極少數於東方受訓的西方瑜伽女之一，並曾在喜馬拉雅偏遠山洞中居住十二年──且其中三年屬於嚴格的禪修閉關，並誓言以女身成佛，無論那需要經歷多少次的投生。
Scott Snibbe: Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo, it’s such an honor to have you join us on A Skeptics Path to Enlightenment. I’m very inspired by your life story, as it was told in Vicki MacKenzie’s book, Cave In The Snow, and also by your continuing wonderful activities in your life. So thank you so much for taking time out of those important activities to talk to us. I thought I would just start out by asking you what’s important to you in your daily life right now at the Abbey as you’re mentoring young women who’ve committed to a Buddhist path?
Scott Snibbe: 傑尊瑪丹津．葩默，非常榮幸能邀請您加入我們的《懷疑者的證悟之路》。維琪．麥肯基《雪洞》一書所講述關於您的生平故事，以及您後續人生所進行的美好事業，都讓我深受啟發。非常感謝您從這些重要活動中抽出時間來與我們交流。一開始，我想請教，您在指導尼院中那些致力於佛道的年輕女性時，日常生活中有哪些事情對您來說具有重要性？
Role as Abbess of her Nunnery
身為自己尼院的住持
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Well, basically just making sure that our nuns here receive the right kind of education, especially a good dharma education. They’re all studying philosophy. Along with the study, we also emphasize practice because so often, it’s missing in the Tibetan system. Either you do study or you do ritual; or for the few, you do a meditation practice, but you don’t combine all three, not all at one time.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：嗯，基本上就是確保我們的尼眾受到正確的教育，尤其是良好的佛法教育。她們都要研讀哲學，研讀之餘，我們也強調實修。因為很多時候藏傳體系中缺少實修。你要麼研讀，要麼修法，極少數人會禪修，而不是把三者結合起來，三者並未同時進行。
And so what is different in our nunnery, Dongyu Gatsal Ling, is that the nuns not only to a full study program, including debate, but they also do retreat practices and they also do ritual. They’re quite ritual masters at this point. So my feeling is for all of them to gain that kind of confidence, that inner confidence, which normally nuns lacked because of being so overlooked.
因此，我們的尼院道久迦措林尼院的與眾不同之處就是，尼眾不僅有完整的學習計劃，包括辯經，也進行閉關，並同時修法。目前，她們可說是修法專家了。所以我的想法是要讓她們獲得那種自信，也就是通常尼眾會因受到忽視而缺少的那種內在自信。
Now, in these times when nuns are not overlooked, where they are very much encouraged to gain that inner sense of good self-esteem, they need to be competent in all areas. They practice meditation. They also study and they also perform rituals. So that’s what I try to keep going during times throughout the year.
如今，在這個尼眾不再受到忽視的時代，外在環境極力鼓舞她們要獲得內在良好的自尊感，她們便需要能在所有領域都可勝任。她們禪修、研讀，也修法。這就是我每年堅持努力做到的事情。
Scott Snibbe: From the tradition I’m most familiar with, the Gelugpa, it seems that sometimes in the monasteries and the abbeys you’ll study for even a decade before you start much meditation. Is that the case? How have you changed that and how’s it working?
Scott Snibbe：從我最熟悉的格魯派傳統來看，在僧院和尼院裡，你有時甚至需要學習十年才能開始許多的禪修。是這樣嗎？您這一路以來，是如何改變這種情況的？效果如何呢？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: As I’m already saying to the nuns, it’s not enough to have it all up in your head. You’ve got to bring it down in your heart. You’ve got to become what you’re studying.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：正如我對尼眾所曾說的，光把東西全部放在腦子裡，是不夠的。你必須把它往下帶入心裡。你必須成為你所學到的一切。
And so every day they do some shamatha practice, as well as doing rituals, two hours of ritual every day. But also every year they do two months of silent retreat. So if you can imagine a hundred nuns, all keeping complete silence and they’re very strict.
因此她們每天都會進行止禪（奢摩他），同時也修法，每天兩小時。除此之外，她們每年有兩個月的閉關靜修。你可以想像有一百位尼師，完全保持靜默，而且她們嚴守紀律。
For two months, they immerse themselves in their practice. Because I think it’s very important that they should gain actual experience from their own practice, rather than merely just trumpeting out what they’ve studied and been taught.
在那兩個月中，她們將自身沉浸在修持中。因為我覺得她們應該要從自身的修持中獲得實際的體驗，而非僅是吹噓自己所學到與獲得的教導。這一點非常重要。
They love it. And, of course, it engages a whole different part of the brain, as well as anything else, to actually do some practice apart from just intellectual endeavors. This is what we try to do.
她們很喜歡這樣的安排。正如其他事情一樣，這當然會運用到大腦中一個截然不同的部分，在單純於智識層面努力之外，也實際上做些修持。這就是我們嘗試在做的事情。
We also have a long-term retreat center. We have about ten nuns now in long-term retreat. The majority of them have done nearly 12 years retreat now. And they are training to become yoginis trained by the yogis in our monastery. So there’s also that section which is very much respected by all the other nuns.
我們還有一個長期的閉關中心。目前這個長期閉關中心中大概有十位尼眾。她們大多數已閉關了將近12年，並且正受訓於我們僧院的瑜伽士，以便成為瑜伽女。因此這個部門非常受到其他尼眾的尊重。
Benefits of retreat
閉關的好處
Scott Snibbe: For people who are less familiar with retreat and the benefits of retreat, could you talk a little bit about what that does to your mind and what the benefits are?
Scott Snibbe：對那些不太熟悉閉關和閉關益處的人，您能說說閉關對你的心有什麼影響，有哪些益處嗎？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Well, the whole point is to give an opportunity to become completely immersed in one’s practice with a minimum of external distractions. This is one of the reasons why one keeps silent. Because outer silence helps to reflect an inner silence and you’re not disturbing other people by your chatter.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：好的。整件事的重點就在於要給自己一個充分沉浸於自身修持中的機會，盡量減少外界的打擾。這也是為何要保持安靜的原因。因為外在的安靜有助於反映出內在的寧靜，也不會因自己的絮絮叨叨而打擾他人。
Tibetan practice, especially, requires a lot of time. So what we try to do is to allow them the whole day and much of the night, just spent in immersing the whole mind and heart in one’s practice. That way, one becomes the practice without having to piecemeal it out to just sections. You become one, you’re swimming in an ocean of practice. It helps very much with inner transformation.
特別是藏傳的修持需要花很多時間。所以我們努力做的，就是讓她們有一整個白天，加上夜晚的大部分時間，單純將身心全然都投入到個人的修持中。這樣就不用將修持分成零碎的部分，而使個人成為修持，和修持成為一體，你在修行之海中游泳。這麼做，相當有助於內在的轉化。
Scott Snibbe: To go beyond the duality between the practitioner and the practice.
Scott Snibbe：要超越行者和修持的二元分別。
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: One tries at this point to give the opportunity for that to happen. That’s the most we can do. I have to say that the nuns themselves take it very seriously. And I’m really impressed because many of them are still quite young teenagers.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：目前，就是努力創造機會來讓它發生。我們已經竭盡所能。我必須說，尼眾對此都非常認真。而且她們之中有些還是非常年輕的青少年，令我印象非常深刻。
And yet they completely dive in to the practice. And of course, with a group of them all practicing, that also gives a special energy, which is why it’s good, especially at the beginning, to do group retreats. That way you also get that kind of special energy from all those around you.
但是她們卻能完全投入修持中。而且當一群尼眾在共修時，會有一種特別的能量，這就是為何尤其在剛開始的時候，集體閉關有其好處。如此一來，你也能從周圍的人獲得那種特殊的能量。
Scott Snibbe: What’s the ethnic and cultural makeup of the nuns there in the Abbey? Are there Westerners and Indians and Europeans, Tibetans?
Scott Snibbe：尼院裡的尼眾，民族、文化背景的組成如何？包括西方人、印度人、歐州人和西藏人嗎？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: They’re Himalayans and there are some Tibetans. We have about 120 nuns and maybe 15 of them Tibetans. But nowadays people are not coming from Tibet anymore. The borders are closed. So no newcomers are coming from Tibet.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：包括喜馬拉雅地區的人與西藏人。我們有120位尼師，其中大概有15名西藏人。但是，如今人們不再從西藏過來。邊境已經關閉。所以沒有從西藏來的新人了。
The majority, the vast majority are made up of girls coming from the Himalayan regions. Politically, geographically, they’re Indian, but culturally, spiritually, they are Tibetan; like Ladakh, or Himachal Pradesh, on the other side, also we have quite a few Bhutanese, Nepalese, and so forth.
大多數是來自喜馬拉雅地區的女孩。從政治或地理層面來看，她們是印度人。但從文化或精神層面而言，則是西藏人，像拉達克，或喜馬偕爾邦。另一方面，我們也有不少不丹人、尼泊爾人等。
So they’re all from the Himalayan region. There’s no Western nuns. The lingua franca is Tibetan. They all speak fluent Tibetan.
所以她們全部來自喜馬拉雅地區，沒有西方的尼師。通用語是藏語，她們都能說流利的藏語。
Motivation for young women to become nuns
年輕女性成為尼師的動機
Scott Snibbe: And can you talk about what motivates a young woman to become a nun today?
Scott Snibbe：請您談談，是什麼原因，促使年輕女子會想成為尼師？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Well, I was speaking with the nuns yesterday. One of the things I always ask when you first come is, Why do you want to be a nun? Often they kind of go, [shrugs], you know? But then some of them say, I want to be happy. Some of them say, Oh, I look at my mother, my aunt, or my sisters: I don’t want that life. I want to do something meaningful with my life. And so I want to study dharma and in that way benefit beings.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：我昨天剛好和尼眾談到。你們剛來時，我總是會問到，你為什麼想成為尼師？通常她們就［聳聳肩］沒說啥。不過，有些人會說，我想變得快樂。有些人會說，我看到自己的媽媽、姑姑、姐妹，而我不想過那種生活。我想用自己的生命做些有意義的事。所以我想學習佛法以利益眾生。
And one said that, when she was with nuns, she felt happy. So she thought if she became a nun that would make other people happy. Their reasonings are fairly simple, but then they’re quite young when they come. But they’re from cultures where, as with the Catholic culture, to be a nun or a monk is quite normal. It’s not anything strange.
還有一個人說，當她和尼師待在一起時，都會感到快樂。所以她想成為尼師，好讓他人快樂。她們的理由都非常簡單，而她們來的時候都十分年輕。不過她們所屬的文化，就像天主教文化一樣，做修女或修士是相當正常的。一點都部奇怪。
Some of them, their families didn’t want them to be nuns. And they said, Finish your education then if you still want to be a nun, okay. Occasionally, especially with the Tibetans, they ran away from home to enter a nunnery. But generally the parents bring them along and they’re happy to. Because nowadays nuns have a status which they never had before.
她們當中，有些人的家人不想她們成為尼師。家人還說，如果完成學業之後仍然想當尼師，那就這樣吧。有時，尤其是藏人，她們是離家出走而進入尼院。但通常是父母帶她們來的，而她們也很樂意。這是因為，尼師如今有了前所未有的地位。
Now the nunneries — not just our nunnery, but all nunneries — now mostly offer a good educational program. And the whole idea of what a nun can do has really transformed in the last 20 or so years. So it’s a good life option for these girls.
現在的尼院（不僅是我們尼院，包括所有尼院）都能提供良好的教育計劃。而且對於尼師能做什麼的整體想法，過去20年來發生了很大的轉變。所以對這些女孩來說，這是個不錯的人生選擇。
Scott Snibbe: And you’ve been an important part of making this a greater option for women today.
Scott Snibbe：如今，女性出家已成為較過往更好的人生選擇，在這方面，您一直舉足輕重。
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Well, it’s happening everywhere. And not just in the Tibetan circles, but also in Theravada Buddhism and elsewhere, that there’s a real — education is the key. Once the nuns become educated, they begin to think for themselves. They begin to get a sense of self worth. They stop praying just to be reborn as a male so that they can get on with it. They recognize that even in female form, there’s nothing that they cannot do if they’re given the opportunity. So things have really changed a lot in the last 20 or 30 years, which is good for all Buddhism, not just for the women.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：這種事，到處都在發生，不光是藏人圈子，還包括上座部佛教與其他地方。而這真的──教育是關鍵。一旦尼師獲得教育，就會開始為自己思考。她們開始有了自我價值感。她們不再只是祈求投生為男性，以便繼續追求目標。她們意識到即使是以女身，只要賦予機會，便沒有她們做不到的事。所以，在過去的20或30年，事情確實有很大的變化。而這對整體佛教來說是好事，而非僅對女性而言。
The vow to attain enlightenment in the female form
發願以女身成佛
Scott Snibbe: What you’ve just said reminds me of the famous quote that’s inspired a lot of women: that you’ve said you’ve made a vow to attain enlightenment in the female form, no matter how many lifetimes it takes. Can you talk a little bit about why you made that vow?
Scott Snibbe：您剛才說的，讓我想起那啟發了無數女性的名言：「我發願以女身成佛，無論這需要歷經多少生命生生世世。」請您談談，當初為什麼會發下這個誓言嗎？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Well, because the view always given at that time was that, of course to be human was a good thing, but nonetheless, in order to really make progress on the path, you needed a male body.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：因為當時的觀點一直是這樣，當然身而為人是件好事，但儘管如此，要在修行道上實際有所進步，卻得有個男身。
And in many ways, that was true because it was to the males that all the opportunities were given: for education and for deeper practices. And attention, just noticing that you’re there, you know? So therefore there are so many male teachers. And, even today, if you say, in Tibetan Buddhism, what about the female teachers? Yeshe Tsogyal, Machig Labdrön, Jomo Memo: if you can do one hand you’re already ahead of the game. Whereas the male teachers are like stars in the sky. So therefore it seemed obvious that there was already more than enough males out there.
而且在很多方面，確實如此，因為所有機會都是賦予男性，例如教育和甚深的修持。再來是關注度，僅只是注意到那裡有誰，你懂嗎？因此［我們會看到］有很多的男性上師。而即使如今，如果你問，那麼，藏傳佛教的女性上師呢？益喜措嘉、瑪姬拉准、覺姆曼嫫，如果你能算到一隻手的數目，就很不錯了。而男性上師卻多如天上繁星。所以由此看來，男性上師顯然已經過多了。
What we needed was to travel the path as a female — as many females as possible out there — showing that there’s really no difference. Buddha nature’s not male or female. Women are absolutely as capable of realizing the path as the males. And the only way to do that is to be a female and realize the path.
我們需要的是以女性的身份來走這條法道，而且越多女性越好，以表示真的沒有性別差異。佛性是不分男女的。女性絕對有能力像男性一樣悟道。而要做到這點的唯一方法，就是以女身悟道。
So it seemed obvious. I mean, if there ever comes a time when the females are the most strong and the males have dwindled, then I’ll come back as a male.
所以這似乎很明顯。我是說，如果有一天女性變成最強大的，而男性則減少了，那麼我將以男身再回來。
Scott Snibbe: Then you’ll already be enlightened if you keep your vow!
Scott Snibbe：如果您堅守誓言，那麼屆時您就已經成佛了！
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Ultimately there’s no difference. We all know that, but on the relative plane in which we live, there has always been a big difference. And that is why it’s necessary to promote the feminine.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：究竟而言是沒有［性別］差異的。但我們都知道，在我們所處的相對平台（世俗層面）上，一直都有很大的不同。也因此有必要推廣女性運動。
Scott Snibbe: Particularly in Buddhism, I think when people like myself first hear about sexism and Buddhism, you really scratch your head. Because the religion is founded on this idea of loving all beings, and compassion for all beings, all beings are equal in their capacity for enlightenment. And our attitude to all beings should be equal. So how can that attitude co-exist with sexism?
Scott Snibbe：尤其是佛教中，我覺得當人們，比如我自己，第一次聽到性別歧視和佛教，你真的會埋頭苦思。因為宗教是建立在愛護一切眾生、悲憫一切眾生、所有眾生都有相同能力獲得證悟的思想上。我們對所有眾生的態度也應該是平等的。那麼，這種態度怎麼會與性別歧視共存呢？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Well, I mean, right from the time of the Buddha there was already a problem. And the nuns’ Vinaya, the monastic code, was already very much slated in that direction of making nuns subordinate to the monks.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：是的，我是說從佛陀的時代開始就已經有這個問題。而尼眾的毗奈耶，也就是寺院守則，在很大程度上是以尼師次於僧人為主。
And I think that as time went on, that division grew. Because if the monks were given the opportunities and the education and the nuns were denied it, then naturally the divide would come.
我認為隨著時間推移，這種分化便會加劇。因為如果僧人能得到機會和教育，而尼師卻受到否絕，那麼自然就會出現這種分化。
Plus I think it’s not just on the male side. The females are just as guilty. If you have a group of monks, a group of nuns, and you only have limited resources who will you sponsor? A woman will sponsor the monks.
此外，我覺得這不光是男性的問題。女性也一樣有責任。如果有一群僧人，和一群尼師，而你的資源有限，你將會資助誰呢？女性將資助僧人。
Even in America, this is true today. The monasteries are much better supported than the nunneries. And who is supporting them, mostly women, right? So it’s not just that the men taken all the glory. It’s also, they have been very much encouraged in that, by their female supporters. And social conditions being what they are in all these countries, not just in Asia, but in the West the same, women had their own role to play, but it was a subordinate role to the males.
即使在美國，情況亦然，寺院得到的資助也遠好過尼院。而誰在資助他們呢？大部分都是女性，對吧？所以，這不僅僅是男性獲取了所有的昌榮。而且，他們的女性支持者也非常鼓勵他們這麼做。所有這些國家的社會情境都是如此，不光是亞州，西方也一樣。女人有自己要扮演的角色，但卻是次於男性的角色。
For example, in my mother’s time, and that’s not going back to Queen Victoria, women could be nurses. They didn’t become doctors. They didn’t become lawyers, architects, and so forth, very few.
例如在我母親的年代（還沒追溯到維多利亞女王的時代），女性可以當護士。但她們卻沒有成為醫生，沒有成為律師、建築師等等，［就算有也］非常少。
So it’s not just “backward” Asia. It’s a global phenomena that women in general play the much more subordinate role in society and likewise in Buddhist society. So now, when there is much more equal education, especially in Asia, as well as in the West, then nuns likewise are coming up.
所以這不僅是在所謂「落後」的亞州。這是個全球性的現象，女性在社會上扮演的往往都是遠遠較屬次要的角色，於佛教社會中亦然。如今有了更多的平權教育，尤其是亞州，也包括西方，於是尼師們便開始多了起來。
Scott Snibbe: So if we want to help the cause it sounds like you’d suggest giving to and supporting the abbeys.
Scott Snibbe：所以如果我們想幫助某個事業，聽起來您會建議捐資護持尼院。
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Because the nuns struggle. Sravasti Abbey, which is excellently run by the Venerable Thubten Chodron and has been very successful because the whole program is so excellent there. But nonetheless, compared with the monasteries, it’s much less well known and well-endowed than a monastic center for males would be.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：因為尼師們還在奮鬥。由尊敬的圖丹．卻准法師所優良管理的舍衛精舍，因整套計劃極為卓越而一直都非常成功。儘管如此，相較於寺院，它的知名度和資源都遠不如一個男眾的寺院中心。
And also for the Theravadan nuns in America, they struggle for support compared with the monasteries, the Theravadan forest monasteries, which are really quite affluent. I’m not complaining about that. This is just the way things are, it’s always been that way.
同樣的情況也可見於美國上座部的尼眾。相較於男眾寺院，尼院要努力爭取支援，上座部森林派寺院的資源確實相當充足。我說這些，不是在抱怨。事實就是如此，且一直是這樣。
And as I say, women themselves have contributed to the situation. But it is very good if people do recognize that the nuns everywhere do need support. And they’re very ethical. They are very focused, very intelligent, very devoted. It’s not like they’re stupid or lazy or in any way, just faking it.
正如我說的，女性本身也造成了這種現象。但如果人們認識到各地尼眾確實需要支援，那就很好。而且尼眾持戒嚴謹、非常專注、非常聰明，也非常虔誠。她們並不愚蠢、也不懶惰等等，也沒有偽裝。
So it would be good to encourage them with your gratitude and support just for the life they’re leading, which is often very renounced in the midst of, even Western affluence, that sense of joy in renunciation; joy and contentment with little in a society which is so saturated with the idea that more is best. And, pleasure equals happiness. And sex is essential because otherwise you go weird. They show that’s complete nonsense. It’s the other way round.
請用感激與支持來單純鼓勵她們繼續現在所過的生活，如此很好。相較於西方的富裕，尤其在一個充斥著「更多就是更好」、「愉悅等同快樂」、「性是必要的，否則你就是怪咖」（沒有性行為的是怪咖）這種種思維的社會當中，她們所過的生活通常是一種極大的捨離，擁有極少卻能喜悅知足，這是一種捨離的喜悅。而這些尼眾則讓人們看到，那些全是無稽之談。她們所做的是相反的。
Scott Snibbe: I think you’re absolutely right about that. It’s actually one of the things that greatly inspired me when I got into Buddhism here in San Francisco at Tse Chen Ling. There were three or four nuns, and I really did immediately feel that: the purity and the strength and the devotion of their practice. And we became very close friends. I really learned the Dharma, you know, sometimes more from the nuns even than the Geshe because the nuns are accessible and present all the time and leading the meditations.
Scott Snibbe：我認為您說的完全正確。這正是我在舊金山澤千林接觸佛教後深受啟發的事情之一。那裡有三、四個尼師，我真的直接感受到她們修持的純淨、力量與虔敬。我們也成為了非常親密的好友。你也知道，相較於格西，有時我從尼師那裡學到更多的法教。因為尼師更容易親近，而且一直都在，還會帶領禪修。
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: That’s the other thing, too, you can approach them. And, as you say, I mean, the geshes and the lamas are there, but it’s much more difficult as a cultural divide. Especially also because nowadays the majority of practitioners are females. And if they have any problems, who can they go to? You know, you can’t tell the geshe all your problems, but you can talk to the nuns because they’ve probably been through it themselves. And they can give you some good down to earth advice on how to deal with life.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：這也是一個原因，她們很好親近。我的意思是，正如你所說，那兒有格西和喇嘛，但因為文化的隔閡，所以較難接近。尤其因為現在多數修行者都是女性，如果她們有任何問題，該找誰呢？你也知道，你不能把自己所有的問題都告訴格西，但你可以跟尼師說，因為她們大概自己也經歷過那些。她們還能給你一些關於如何處理生活的務實建議。
Scott Snibbe: Can you talk about what happens to the nuns after their education? Once they get through the entire course at your abbey and then once they leave, how do their lives progress? What happens to them?
Scott Snibbe：您可以談談尼師在受完教育之後的事嗎？當她們在您的尼院完成全部課程後，一旦她們離開，她們的生活會如何發展？會發生什麼？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Well, this is a nunnery. They don’t leave. I mean, they can leave. It’s not a women’s prison, right? If you want to, just walk out, nobody’s stopping you from leaving. But very, very few nuns leave. The dropout rate for nuns is very small compared to monks. They have a 10 year study program, then they do a two years’ tantric program. And then after that they’ve graduated. So then what they want to do, many of them choose to go into long-term retreat, at least three-year retreat.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：好的，這是尼院。她們並不會離開。我的意思是，她們可以離開，這不是個女性牢房，對吧？如果你想，直接走出去就行了，沒有人會攔著不讓你離開。但極少有尼師離開。相較於僧人，尼師的流失率非常小。她們有個十年的學習計劃，接著有兩年的續部課程。再來則是畢業，而她們接著想做的，其中許多人選擇進行長期閉關，至少三年閉關。
Others become teachers. Before, we had to get teachers in from other nunneries who graduated from their own nunneries, they would come and become the teachers. Now they are leaving, going back to their own nunneries and our nuns are becoming the teachers. So our nuns are teaching the other nuns.
其他人成了老師。從前，我們得從其他尼院裡找老師。她們從自己的尼院畢業後，會來我們的尼院當老師。現在她們離開而回到自己的尼院，我們的尼師則成了老師。所以我們的尼師，正在教導其他的尼師。
And then we also — not now because we’re in lockdown — but normally we have a guest house, we have a cafe, we have a medical center and various other different things for nuns to work at. And there are various roles within the nunnery, like disciplinarians, and scrollkeepers and so forth, which rotate every year. And then the senior nuns take those roles.
I mean, it is a nunnery. It’s not just a study center.
一般而言（不是現在，目前是封城狀態），我們有客房、咖啡廳，還有醫療中心等，讓尼眾可以從事不同種類的事物。尼院裡還有其他的崗位，比如糾察師、經卷管理員等，每年輪換。由資深尼師擔任這些崗位。我的意思是，這是個尼院，而非僅是個學習中心。
iPhones at the monastery
寺院裡的蘋果手機
Scott Snibbe: That’s very good news because there is a crisis among some of the monasteries where the boys, they come more for the education and leave at age 16, 17, and they’re having trouble filling the ranks and completing the programs, right?
Scott Snibbe：這是個很好的消息。因為在一些寺院，男孩們大多是為了教育而來，卻在16或17歲時離開，使得那些寺院有著僧眾數量不足或未能結業的危機，對吧？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: It’s a big problem in all the monasteries. But I think for the nuns, I mean with respect, you’re a teenage boy, then you think, Okay, now what? If I leave, then you know, I can get some kind of job, make some money, find some nice girl. You know, she’ll keep me warm at night, she’ll do the cooking and cleaning. And it sounds pretty good. Why not?
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：這是所有寺院都面臨的大問題。但我想，相較於尼師，如果你是個青少男，你想說，好吧，現在，如果我離開，我可以找到工作，賺點錢，找個好女孩，她會在晚上陪我，幫我做飯和打掃。這聽起來很好啊，何樂而不為呢？
But the girl has to think, if I leave the nunnery, then I have to get a job or do field work. Then I have to get married. Then I have to do the cooking and the cleaning, have a baby every year. And she thinks, Oh, I think I’ll stay where I am. So she has much more fun in nunneries.
但女孩們就得想想：如果我離開尼院，那麼我必須找工作或者做農務。然後我得結婚，做飯和打掃，還得每年生個小孩。於是她會想：我覺得我還是留在這裡。因為在尼院裡有更多樂趣。
Tibetan nunneries are great fun, you know? The nuns are always laughing and very cheerful and they actually enjoy themselves as well as dedicating themselves to study and practice.
你知道嗎？藏傳的尼院是非常有趣的。尼師們總是笑嘻嘻的，非常開朗，而且都懂得自我欣賞。同時也非常投入學習和修持。
There’s lot of laughter there, a lot of joy. In all nunneries, it’s not just our nunnery, the fallout rate from nuns is much less than the fallout rate nowadays for monks.
那裡有很多笑聲，很多快樂。不光是我們尼院，今日在所有尼院，尼師的流失率都比僧人要低很多。
Because also nowadays all in the monasteries, you know, they have iPhones and on the internet and so forth. So their minds are very distracted. And they have all this interconnection with what’s going on out there. People even report that they see even during pujas that monks under the table are playing around with their iPhones.
這也是因為如今在寺院裡，僧人都有蘋果手機和網路等等。所以他們的心是非常散亂的。他們與外面發生的一切事情相互交流。人們甚至表示他們看見僧人在修法期間於桌下玩著手機。
And in classes also the teachers are complaining about iPhones in the monasteries. But for example, in our nunnery, although many of their parents give them iPhones to contact them, we have a rule that during the week, they give their iPhones to the disciplinarian, and then they get them back on Sunday. So on Sunday, they can contact their friends and their family if they want to. But the rest of the week, they don’t have them. And that way they don’t get distracted.
課堂上，老師們也在抱怨寺院裡的手機使用［氾濫問題］。但以我們的尼院為例，儘管很多父母都會給尼師們手機以便聯繫，但我們有一條規則就是，在週間，她們要將手機交給糾察師，並在星期天拿回。所以在星期天，如果她們想要的話，可以聯繫自己的朋友和家人。但在週間的其餘時間，她們並無手機。這樣她們也不會分心。
I mean, I have to think what would the Buddha have done? The fact that there’s no rule about it doesn’t mean that we can’t make a rule.
我的意思是，我得想想，如果是佛陀，會怎麼做呢？事實上，沒有規則，不代表我們不能制定一個規則。
Scott Snibbe: The Buddha would have taken your iPhone away.
Scott Snibbe：佛陀會把你的蘋果手機拿走。
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: He would have said No, monks, I think iPhone’s not a good idea. Because it’s a distraction, because it becomes an addiction. And that’s going in opposite direction to where the monk’s mind is supposed to be going. There needs to be some understanding about what being a monk is all about.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：他會說，不，僧人，我覺得蘋果手機不是個好主意。因為它會讓人分心，也會讓人上癮。而這將使僧人的心往反方向走。大家對於身為僧人代表的意義，需要有些了解。
How the path for women changed
女性的修道之路是如何改變的
Scott Snibbe: You started at a really difficult time for women in Buddhism and faced a lot of extreme sexism, even being deprived of access to the teachings you came to study in the monastery. How have things improved and what still needs to be improved for women in Buddhism?
Scott Snibbe：您是在一個非常艱難的時期出家，當時佛教中的女性面臨著極度的性別歧視，甚至被剝奪了在寺院中學習法教的機會。對佛教中的女性來講，這一路以來，情況是如何改善的？還有哪些地方需要改善？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Well, I mean, certainly in the nunneries, as I say, things have improved beyond thought, really. I think what happened were two things: one that Western nuns like Thubten Chodron, and Karma Lekshe Tsomo, Jampa Tsedroen, et cetera. They went to India, they were studying at the school of dialectics and they were learning debate so forth.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：正如我說的，我的意思是，確實在尼院裡，事情的改善真的超乎想像。我認為［這是因為］有兩件事發生：一件是圖丹卻准、噶碼列謝措嫫、蔣巴澤諄等西方的尼眾，她們去了印度，到辯經學院就讀，在那兒學習辯論等。
And the Tibetan nuns, who had been told not to debate, that women couldn’t debate because we don’t have that kind of mind and we’re not aggressive enough. They said, How come you’re debating and we cannot? Then they said to them, You can. And then senior students just start teaching the nuns. So that was one side of it, nuns began to get confidence that they could debate.
而西藏的尼師，人們一直以來都叫她們不要辯論，認為女性沒有這種頭腦，也不夠積極進取等。於是她們表示，為什麼你們可以辯論，我們卻不行？然後僧眾告訴她們，妳們可以。於是資深的學生就開始教導尼眾。這是其中一方面，尼師們開始有了可以辯論的自信。
At the same time in the secular world, in the Tibetan school system, the girls were doing extremely well and often going to college and so forth, showing that women were perfectly intelligent.
同時在世俗世界裡，西藏學校體系中的女孩，表現也相當優秀，經常可以進入大學等，顯示女性是極為聰明的。
Even though in Vajrayana, wisdom is female, but they didn’t quite catch onto that bit. But now the girls were showing that they were totally intelligent. Therefore the question was if in the secular world women show their intelligence, how come it’s not happening in the monasteries?
儘管在金剛乘中，智慧是［以］女性［為代表］，但他們卻沒有完全理解這一點。然而，如今女孩展現了她們的十足聰明。因此問題是，如果世俗社會中的女性展現了她們的智慧，寺院裡為何不是這樣呢？
So then gradually with the Tibetans Nuns Project and others, they began to invite geshes and khenpos to come and teach the nuns. And once they started, they really loved it because the nuns were so focused. And they were like dry sponges, just soaking up the liquid dharma. So they became very enthusiastic.
接著，隨著「西藏尼師計畫」和其他計畫的逐漸發展，他們開始邀請格西和堪布來教授尼眾。一旦他們開始教學，就真的愛上了教導尼師這件事，因為她們是如此專注。她們就像乾燥的海綿那樣，整個吸收佛法的精華。因此她們也變得非常熱切。
Once they recognize that it could happen, of course, it just took off. You couldn’t stop it anymore. And now, of course, there are female geshes. There are khenmos and so forth. And now more and more, monks are teaching nuns. Once you get that education, you get the concept of, recognize your own intelligence is there, you’re not inferior.
一旦她們認識到這種可能性，自然一切就開始了。你再也無法阻止。而且當然，目前已經有了女格西。還有女堪布（堪姆）等等。現在，越來越多僧人在教尼師。一旦你得到這種教育，你就得到這種概念，認識到自己有著智慧，你並非次人一等。
People are not teaching you because you’re stupid, right? It’s just you got overlooked, but you’re not overlooked anymore. And so, you know, the road ahead is clear.
人們不教你，不是因為你笨。只是因為你受到忽視，但你不會再被忽視了。於是你知道，前方的道路相當暢通。
So it’s been wonderful in these years to see these wonderfully bright women coming up. Like before they were buds, like a rosebud, and because they were not watered, the soil was very hard, there was no sunshine of approval. There was no water of the teachings. So they lived and died as withered buds. They never opened. Whereas now they’re opening up and showing how beautiful they are and scent of the dharma is just wafting from all these nunneries now.
所以，這些年看到這些出色聰明的女性輩出，是非常美好的。好比她們曾是花蕾，例如玫瑰花蕾，因為無人澆水，土壤非常堅硬，陽光從未到訪，也沒有法教的雨露，使得她們就像枯萎的花蕾一樣活著並死去。她們從未盛開。然而如今，她們正在綻放，展現著各自的美麗，佛法的馨香正從所有這些尼院中飄揚出來。
Advice for female practitioners
給女性修行者的建言
Scott Snibbe: And would you have any advice for female lay Buddhist practitioners or observations of how opportunities have changed for them over time?
Scott Snibbe：可以請您對在家的女性修行人給予些建言嗎？或者您觀察到隨著時間推移，有哪些機會的改變對她們有幫助呢？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Well, I think that now that in the West, for example, where a vast number of people in the dharma are female, the lamas themselves have recognized that they can no longer give this rather misogynistic message. Many of their brightest and most devoted students are the women: highly educated, highly articulate and devoted.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：我想，以當今的西方為例，佛法中心的大量信徒都是女性。喇嘛們也意識到他們不能再傳遞那種相當歧視女性的訊息。他們最聰明以及最虔誠的學生，許多都是女性：受過高等教育、表達能力優秀，而且非常虔誠。
I think now the gap between the male and female is more or less closed as far as that is concerned. That anything the boys can do, the girls can do. Of course they can. And the message is always, you know, that on the ultimate level, there is no male or female. And many of the best teachers in the West are women.
我認為就此方面而言，男女之間的差距現在或多或少已經消失了。任何男孩能做的事，女孩也能做。她們當然可以。而訊息向來都是，究竟而言，沒有男性或女性。在西方，許多最好的老師都是女性。
So it’s changed. And it’s interesting that though Buddhism is always talking change, it resists it like anything else. But things will change. And of course, for the nuns now, the next big barrier to overcome is that of higher ordination. That’s a wall that’s been hit. It’s very interesting how much resistance there is to the idea of nuns being fully ordained as the Buddha himself wished. You know, the full sangha. He’s always talking about the full sangha.
所以事情已經有了變化。有趣的是，雖然佛教一直在講變化，它卻像拒絕其他事物一樣抵抗著變化。然而事情必定改變。當然，對現在的尼師來講，下一個需要克服的最大阻礙便是去接受更高的戒規。這是一堵正在受到撞擊的牆。非常有趣的是，要如佛所願地讓尼師們領受具足戒的想法，卻遭到極大的阻力。你也知道，完整的僧團，佛陀一直都提到完整的僧團。
Scott Snibbe: Yes.
Scott Snibbe：是的。
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: They don’t want the four-fold sangha. They want the three-fold sangha, three and a half fold sangha.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：他們不想要四眾。他們想要三眾，或者三個半眾。
Scott Snibbe: Can you explain what the four-fold sangha is for people who aren’t familiar with that term?
Scott Snibbe：請您為不懂這些名相的人，解釋一下什麼是四眾？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Sure. That means fully ordained monks, fully ordained nuns, lay men, and lay women. So it’s a monastic and lay sangha together. The Buddha said it was like a table with four legs or a chair before legs, very stable.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：沒問題。它的意思是受具足戒的比丘，受具足戒的比丘尼，在家男眾和在家女眾。所以總共是出家眾與在家眾。佛陀說過，四眾就像一個桌子的四隻腳，或者一個椅子的四隻腳，非常穩定。
And also the Buddha said that as long the four-fold sangha exists — that means monastics and lay people together studying and practicing and preaching the Dharma — then the Dharma will flourish. He didn’t just say monks, he said the four-fold sangha.
佛陀還說過只要四眾仍存在，意思是出家眾和在家眾一起學習、修持和傳授佛法，那麼佛法就能繼續昌榮。他並沒有只說僧人，他說的是四眾。
And even straight after his enlightenment in a talk with Mara who represents the forces opposed to him awakening, he said that his purpose was to establish the four-fold sangha. So right from the start, that was his purpose, it wasn’t that nuns were foisted on him. He already had that vision, that there would be a balance between the monastics and the lay people of both genders.
而且甚至就在他證得菩提後與魔王波旬（代表反對佛陀獲得正覺的勢力）的交談中，便說過他的目的是要建立四眾。所以打從一開始，這就是他的目的，並非尼眾所強行加諸的。他早已有這樣的願景，也就是男女僧俗四眾的一種平衡。
Who am I: our fundamental goodness, Buddha nature
我是誰：我們的根本善、佛性
Scott Snibbe: When we began this conversation, you said regardless gender everyone has a fundamental goodness. Everyone has Buddha nature. Also, in Vicki Mackenzie’s book you talk about having a very deep intuition that this was true too in your own life from an early age. Can you talk about what this is for people less familiar with that idea of Buddha nature or our fundamental goodness? What is that and how can we feel conviction in that fundamental goodness and get back touch with it?
Scott Snibbe：在我們交談之初，您說過無論性別，人人都有著根本善。人人都有佛性。而且，在維琪．麥肯基的書中，您說自己從小時候就有著相當深切的直覺。您能否向那些不怎麼熟悉佛性或根本善的人，談談這個觀念、這是什麼？以及我們如何能相信有根本善，進而重新與它連結？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Well, in one way, the whole point of meditation is to come back to our genuine nature again. It’s called the nature of the mind, mind hidden, meaning not the brain, but the nature of fundamental consciousness. And, normally, why we are stuck in this round of birth and sometimes happy, sometimes miserable, turned up and down on the ocean, is because we identify with our conceptual thinking mind.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：好的。從某個角度來說，禪修的整個意義就是再次回到我們的真實本性。它被稱為心的自性，隱藏的心，它不是指大腦，而是指根本心識的自性。而且一般來說，我們為何會被困在這一世，時而快樂、時而悲苦，在海洋中起起伏伏，正是因為我們用概念心來辨認萬法。
We think, This is who I am. All my thoughts, my feelings, my memories, my anticipations, my plans. This is me. So from a spiritual point of view, we’re identifying with all the wrong things. I would say that in all genuine spiritual traditions — Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish — the mystical traditions have understood that there is something innate within us that’s blocked by identification with the small self.
我們認為，這就是我。所有我的念頭、我的感受、我的記憶、，我的期待、我的計劃等，這就是我。所以，從修道的角度來看，我們所認同的全都是錯誤的東西。我想說，基督教、穆斯林、印度教、猶太教等所有真正的修道傳統，這些神祕的傳統都明白，我們內在有個東西，被我們對小我的認同感堵住了。
What we need to do is dissolve that small self to open up to a whole different level of consciousness, which is our true nature, who we really are. And that is sometimes described as being like the sky, like space, because you can’t see it, you can’t touch it, you can’t taste it, but it’s all pervading.
我們需要做的就是將小我消融，以開啟一個截然不同的心識層面，也就是我們的真實本性，我們真正的樣貌。這有時也被描述為像天空、虛空一樣，因為你看不見、摸不到、嘗不到，但是它無處不在。
And our problem is that we just see the clouds. We are identifying with the clouds. When we look at our mind, we see the clouds, but we don’t see the sky. What we need is to come back to that basic essential nature, which is a non-dual consciousness.
而我們的問題是我們只看見雲朵。我們認同的是雲朵。當我們觀察自心，我們看見雲朵，卻看不見天空。我們需要做的，就是回到最根本的自性，也就是非二元的心識。
Normally, we are caught up in our dualism. There’s me and everybody there who is not me. And so that sense of separation is always there. Then we reify our reality, our thoughts, and apparent external phenomena. We think each bit is very separate, very different, very individual to itself.
通常，我們會陷入自己的二元分別中。有著我，以及其他不是我的人。於是這種分離感一直都在。我們接著將自己的現況、自己的念頭、看似於外的現象執以為實。我們認為一切都是各自甚為分離、甚具差異且甚為獨立的。
Neuroscience is very interesting nowadays, I have to say, because they are now exploring consciousness. Consciousness is not the brain, which is a huge step forward for them because before it was very mechanistic. If you couldn’t get it on the machine, it didn’t exist. Now they’re recognizing that the brain is a wonderful tool, but it’s not the energy running the tool. So our essential nature is described as being empty, meaning that it’s open and spacious and you can’t hold it. You can’t cling to it.
不得不說，現代神經學非常有意思。因為他們正在探索心識。心識並非大腦，這對他們來講是個巨大的進步，因為在這之前是非常機械主義的。如果有個東西沒辦法透過機器操作而讓它顯現，那它就不存在。如今他們認識到，大腦雖是個十分美好的工具，卻不是趨動那個工具的能量。所以，我們的根本自性被描述為空，意思是它為開放的、寬闊的，你無法持有，也無法依附。
But at the same time, it is this fundamental clarity and knowing nature of the mind. We all know, we are aware. All of us. So we are all that nature the whole time. It’s not we have to develop it. What we need to do is to recognize it. Because we have to become conscious of being conscious. And in that level consciousness, which is non-dualistic, it also interconnects us everything so that we recognize everything is interdependent.
然而與此同時，它就是心的根本明晰與了知自性。我們都有了知，我們都能覺察，所有人皆然。所以我們一直都是那個自性。它不是我們需要開發的東西。我們需要做的就是去認出它。由於我們必須對自己的覺知有所覺知，而那個層次的心識為非二元的，它也能讓我們與所有事物得以連結，而認識到所有事物都是相互依存的。
It’s not separate little globules. We are not separate. Actually, everything is intrinsically interconnected. And that is a whole different way of understanding our consciousness. It has no male, no female. It doesn’t even have human and animal because animals also have Buddha nature.
事物並非分離的小球體。我們不是分離的。事實上，任何事物在本質上都是相互關聯的。而這是理解我們心識一種截然不同的方式。它沒有男性，沒有女性，它甚至沒有人類和動物之分。因為動物也具有佛性。
Scott Snibbe: I talked to Rick Hanson about this, and he said that fundamental goodness and satisfaction, some ways you can see more in an animal because when the animal their food and a comfortable place, they’re absolutely satisfied. They’re not fantasizing about what else they need. So maybe on that level we see that Buddha nature in animals?
Scott Snibbe：我和Rick Hanson談過這個話題。他說從某方面來講，這種根本的善良與滿足，在動物中更常見。因為當動物有了食物和舒適的地方，牠們就絕對滿足了。牠們不會幻想自己還需要其他什麼。那麼也許是在這個層次，我們能在動物身上看到佛性？
All beings have Buddha nature. That’s the whole point. Why? Because all beings are conscious. And it is just our fundamental level of non-dualistic primal consciousness, which is what we’re talking about, it’s nothing magical.
一切眾生皆有佛性。這才是整個重點所在。為什麼呢？因為一切眾生都有覺知。它純粹是我們無二本初心識的根本層次，也就是我們剛才所談的。它沒有什麼神奇之處。
That’s why it’s sometimes said it’s so simple that we miss it. Because we’re expecting great bliss and lights and luminosity. And it’s not. It’s so simple, like space. But space contains everything. Without space, nothing could exist. And that’s like the mind. The nature of the mind is so vast and open and spacious that everything can come to be within it. But we don’t recognize that. It’s like going into a room and you see the furniture and all the decorations, but you don’t see the space.
這就是何以有時會說：正因它如此簡單，以致我們會錯失。由於我們期待著大樂、大光、大明。而它並不是。它如此簡單，好比虛空。而虛空能涵納萬象。沒有虛空，任何事物都不存在。心也是如此。心的本性如此廣大、開放和寬闊，所有事物都能包含在內。但我們卻沒有認出這一點。這就像走到一間房裡，你只看到傢俱和種種裝飾，卻看不到那個虛空。
Scott Snibbe: Can you talk a little bit about how a person could get through to that non-duality and seeing the spaciousness and getting beyond reification, especially an ordinary person, not a professional monk or nun.
Scott Snibbe：請您再談談，一個人，尤其是凡夫，而非專業的僧人或尼師，如何才能突破而達到非二元的境界，見到那寬廣並超越執實？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: I mean, our big problem is that we get lost within our thoughts and feelings. It’s like we’re in a river or in a sea and we’re completely engulfed in water. And if you think of an ocean, then the waves go up, the waves go down. And we’re always on the wave level, we never go deeper than that. Sometimes we’re up, sometimes we’re down, sometimes we’re up, sometimes we’re down.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：我想說，我們最大的問題，就是迷失在自己的念頭和感覺中。好比我們在河裡或海中，完全被水吞沒。如果你想到大海，於是波浪來了，又落下。而我們一直都在波浪的高度，從未更加深入。我們起起伏伏，不時上下。
So the Buddha said, you need a raft, right? And the raft is our mindfulness. But mindfulness just means being aware and having a sense of presence and knowing. Instead of getting lost and distracted, we’ve become more conscious. And we are. Anybody can do this in one second. We can either be swept along or else we are aware of what’s going on.
所以佛陀說，你需要一個舟筏，對吧？這個舟筏就是正念。而正念單純是去覺察，有著當下感與了知感。我們變得更有覺知，不再迷失或散亂。就是如此。任何人都可以於剎那間做到這點。我們要麼被念頭和感覺帶走，要麼覺察到正在發生的事情。
And so to help us, the Buddha said, In the beginning, because the mind is so crazy, it might be difficult to observe the mind. So start with something easier: the breath. Why? Because we’re always breathing, we cannot breathe into past. We cannot breathe in the future. We only can breathe now.
因此，佛陀為了幫助我們，就說：一開始的時候，心是相當瘋狂的，或許難以觀察。所以要從一些比較容易的事情著手，也就是：呼吸。為什麼呢？因為我們一直在呼吸，我們不能回到過去呼吸，也不能去到未來呼吸。我們只能在當下呼吸。
If we are really aware of the breath, just being aware of the breath as it comes in and out in that moment, we’re present. And so this is like something which, holds us, catches us.
如果我們真的覺察到呼吸，僅僅覺察氣息的出入剎那，我們就是在當下。因此這就像是個能抓住我們、逮住我們的東西。
And then gradually, even during the day, we can learn how to be more conscious. You know, when the mind’s getting all crazy or we’re very tired or depressed or anything, just bring them the attention back to breathing. It’s so simple. And it doesn’t require any great philosophical knowledge or any great meditational skills. It just requires the determination to, as much as possible, even for a minute or two, to just be here. All right. In this moment, I’m breathing, then what’s going on in the mind?
然後逐步地，即使在白天，我們也能學著讓自己更有覺知。如果心變得相當瘋狂，或者自己十分疲憊、沮喪等，只要將專注帶回到呼吸上。如此簡單。而且這不需要任何偉大的哲學知識或禪修技巧。它只需要決心，而且做得越多越好，就是處在當下，即使一兩分鐘也行。好，就在此刻，我正在呼吸，那麼，我的心中有些什麼？
What are the feelings, where do these emotions feel in the body? What is the body feeling in this moment? And then gradually making the awareness wider. What sounds, sensations, what’s happening outside as well as what’s happening inside. Anybody can do that. It’s not that it’s difficult. The problem is, we don’t do it.
有哪些感覺，身體的哪裡感覺到那些情緒？身體此刻有什麼感覺？接著，讓覺察漸次地更為寬廣，去覺察：有什麼聲音，有什麼感受，外面發生了什麼，自己裡面發生了什麼。任何人都能做到這點。這沒那麼難。問題是，我們不去做。
And this is why retreats are useful. They give the discipline and the guidance for helping people to experience, to taste that they can do this. Yes, I actually I can meditate. They get infused.
這也是為什麼閉關會有用。它能提供紀律和指導，幫助人們體驗，並嘗到自己也能做到的滋味。是的，我實際上可以禪修，於是受到鼓舞。
Dealing with the suffering of the world
處理世間的痛苦
Scott Snibbe: And a big obstacle to this for people, of course, is our own strong attachments and our strong fears. For example, the pandemic for so many people is a big struggle. And especially now, it almost seemed like we were cresting the pandemic, at least in the United States where we’re lucky to have the vaccines. But what would you say to people who are now feeling more despair that, this is never going to be over? There’s so much suffering, children are getting sick. Other countries aren’t getting equal access to the vaccine. How do people deal with, large, difficult seemingly insoluble problems like this?
Scott Snibbe：對人們來說，我們強烈的執著和巨大的恐懼當然是個大障礙。比如瘟疫對很多人而言，就是個巨大的掙扎。尤其是現在，瘟疫似乎正在攀升到頂，至少在美國，我們很幸運的有疫苗。但是對那些目前感到更為絕望，認為這一切將不會結束的人，您想告訴他們什麼？世界上有許多痛苦，孩子們正在生病。其他國家沒有獲得疫苗的平等機會。人們該怎麼應對這種大型、困難且看似無法解決的問題呢？
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: First of all, this is samsara. This a round of birth and death.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：首先，這就是輪迴，生與死的輪迴。
We are simply getting back what we ourselves have created. We have messed up this planet. We have completely messed up our relationships with animals and with other humans. And because of our own greed and aggression, we are where we are now. And, if it wasn’t now it was in the past that many human beings have been very irresponsible.
我們只是回到我們自己創造的環境中而已。我們把這個星球搞得一團糟。我們徹底搞砸了自己與動物及其他人類的關係。而且正因個人的貪婪與瞋怒，我們才會有現在的局面。而且不僅是現在，過去也有許多人相當不負責任。
Of course, if you’ve look at history, we’ve always had a hard time. If it wasn’t one thing, it was something else. People are always saying, This is the worst time. It was much better than when I was young. And for thousands of years people have been saying that.
當然，如果你回顧歷史，我們總會經歷艱難時期。如果不是這個，也會是其他什麼事。人們總說現在是最糟的時刻，我小時候的情況比現在好多了。人們幾千年來都說著同樣的話。
The other point is that, as Shantideva said, If there is a solution, why worry? And if there is no solution worry doesn’t help. Right? Just worrying doesn’t help others, doesn’t help oneself, doesn’t help the situation at all. We have to accept this is how it is right now.
此外，正如寂天菩薩所說：若事尚可為，云何不歡喜，若已不濟事，憂惱有何益？（如果有辦法解決，何需憂惱？如果沒辦法解決，憂惱也幫不了忙）。對吧？憂惱對他人沒有幫助，對自身沒有幫助，對情況也根本沒有任何幫助。我們必須接受，現在就是如此。
It is very noticeable, Scott, that people who have some kinds of spiritual practice have almost welcomed this pandemic, not for the suffering that is caused, but for the space it has given in their own personal lives, that they can’t go to work, they can’t socialize, they can’t run around, they can’t get distracted, so they have more time to practice.
Scott，非常明顯的是，那些有某種修持的人看來是樂於接受這次的瘟疫。不是因為它導致的痛苦，而是因為它為個人生活所提供的空間。因為他們不能上班、沒得社交，不能亂跑、沒得散亂，所以有更多時間來修持。
And also of course, nowadays many teachers have stepped up and are doing a lot of online teaching. Far more than they ever did before. So many people now are, Zooming and YouTube-ing and podcasting. And are learning so much. Because now many of these teachers are out there giving talks, running courses and so forth, and people have time now to do this.
當然，如今也有很多老師站出來，開始給予大量的線上教學，這比他們以前做的要多得多。所以不少人現在使用ZOOM、YOUTUBE和PODCAST，並且學習甚多。因為有許多老師在網路平台上開示、開班等，而人們目前也有時間這麼做。
So for many people, not only in the Buddhist world, but in other spiritual traditions also. they have actually benefited from this very, very challenging time.
所以對許多人來說，不僅是佛教社會，對其他修道傳統亦然。他們實際上因為這個非常、非常困難的時期而受益。
The people I feel the most concerned for are the children. Because during this very critical time in their lives they’ve been separated and the social interaction is not the same. And that I think, for the future, that is going to be very interesting. What kind of adults will they turn into? That whole band of millions of young people who have been so arrested in their development at this time, and often in very threatening domestic situations also, everybody’s caught together.
我最擔心的是孩子們。因為他們在生命的關鍵時期被分開了，社會互動也變得不一樣。我認為未來會很有意思。他們長大後會變成什麼樣子？數以百萬的年輕人，此時在成長過程中被困住，而且往往是甚具威嚇力的家庭環境中，所有人都被綁在一起。
But individually, then, this is a time to recognize, Yes, there is no security in samsara. We think we’ve got it all tapped out nicely. I’ve got everything worked out. I’m going to do this, then that’s going to happen, then this, and now it’s all blown away, you know?
但是就個人而言，現在是時候可以認識到：是的，在輪迴中沒有什麼安全可言。我們以為自己搞定了一切，解決了一切。我要去做這個，接著會發生那個，然後這個，如今，那些全都忽然不再如此。
We have to see that the only genuine refuge is within ourselves. Because happiness and security are not out there and they never have been. We fool ourselves. It’s not like that. But inwardly, if we genuinely cultivate an inner practice, that is a refuge no matter what is happening outside. We have our own inner security. So this is the point. And if you have any belief system at all, now’s the time to bring it into operation and make sure that it works for you.
我們必須看到，唯一真實的皈依處是於自己的內在。因為幸福與安全並不在外面，也從未在外面。我們愚弄了自己。事情並非如此。但如果我們向內，真正地培養一種內在的修持，則無論外面發生任何事情，那兒就是皈依處。我們有自身的內在保全。而這是重點，如果你有任何的信念體系，現在是時候開始讓它運作，同時確保它對你有用。
What else can you do? This is how it is, and then complaining and getting upset and paranoid and all that. It’s just adding dukkha on top of dukkha, suffering on top of suffering.
我們還能做什麼呢？事情就是這樣，抱怨、沮喪或偏執等，都只是苦上加苦、痛上加痛而已。
The Buddha said that there are two kinds of suffering: there’s physical suffering, and there’s mental suffering. Physical suffering, you’re going to have to experience because that’s the nature of the physical. But mental suffering, that’s a choice.
佛陀曾說有兩種苦：一種是身體上的苦，一種是心理上的苦。身體上的苦，是必須經歷的，因為那是身體的本質。但心理上的苦，則是有選擇的。
We can choose to be depressed and upset and paranoid because of the external. Or we can choose not to be. That’s up to us. Even in the most awful situations. For example, when many nuns were imprisoned during the cultural revolution and torn apart by the prison circumstances under the Chinese communists, and many of them were interrogated and tortured for years. They were in prison with no fault of their own. They had never done any crime, but they were in prison because of their view: 20, 30 years. And by right, they should have come out either broken or completely bitter and angry — justifiably.
你可以選擇因外在而絕望、沮喪、偏執。或者我們可以選擇不這樣。一切都在於我們。即使在最糟糕的情況下，例如文革時許多尼師都被關在監獄，受到中國共產黨的嚴厲抨擊。其中許多人遭到了多年的審訊和折磨。她們並非因為自身的過錯而入獄。她們也沒做過任何的違法之事，只是因為觀點立場而入獄二、三十年。照理說，她們出獄時應該會情緒崩潰、痛苦不堪，或憤怒不已。
But so many of them came out, just blissful, with so much love, so much compassion and saying how grateful they were for that situation. Because it taught them what genuine compassion really means, which they couldn’t have learned if life was very pleasant and nice and they were just standing alone. When you’re with a challenge, that’s when you show your strength or not, isn’t it?
然而她們許多人出獄時，卻充滿大樂，懷著大慈，有著大悲，並且表示自己多麼感激這個境遇。因為這教會了她們悲心的真正意義，而如果生活愉悅美好，她們只會獨善其身，便無法學到悲心為何。當你遇到挑戰，那就是你展現自身力量的時刻，不是嗎？
Next week’s meditation
下週的禪修
Scott Snibbe: You’ve kindly agreed to lead a meditation for us, which will play in the next episode. Can you talk a little bit about what that meditation is right now? Or we can let it be a surprise and just have you guide it.
Scott Snibbe：您非常欣然地同意帶領我們進行禪修。這將在下一集播放。請您現在簡單說明那會是怎樣的禪修？或者我們可以當作驚喜，直接讓您來指導。
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: The essence of practice, meditation practice, is to cultivate awareness. And I think that this is the crux of the whole thing is that we are not aware, that we endlessly distracted. And non-distraction is the essence of the path. So the meditation will just be on, just the few little stages on how to cultivate our inner awareness. Because it’s not just when you are on the meditation seat, but throughout the day, as much as we can remember to ourselves back into the present.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：修持的本質、禪修的本質，就在於培養覺知。而且我認為整件事的關鍵就因為我們沒有在覺知，我們無止境地分心散亂。而，不散亂，乃是修道的精要。所以下週的禪修將單純放在如何培養內在覺知的幾個小步驟。因為這不僅是我們在坐墊上的時刻，而是一整天下來，要盡己所能地記得回到當下。
And the good thing with this is that it doesn’t have anything per se to do with our religious beliefs. It’s nothing to do with whether you believe in Buddhism or Christianity or anything. It’s just to do with how to learn to be present and how to learn to be kind.
而且這一點的好處是它和我們的宗教信仰沒有任何關係。無論你的信仰是佛教或基督教，或其他宗教，都沒有任何關係。它只關乎於如何學會活在當下、如何學會保持善心。
Because along with that awareness, it should be a loving awareness. Not just “I am being very mindful,” but with an open heart to recognize that everyone we meet would rather feel okay, than not feel okay. Whoever they are and however difficult they are, in their heart, they would like to feel good. You know, that life wouldn’t be difficult for them. So just as I would rather be happy than miserable, everybody would rather be happy than miserable.
伴隨著那份覺知，它應是一份帶著慈愛的覺知。不僅是「我非常具有正念」，更是一顆開放的心，認識到我們遇到的每個人都希望感受良好，而非感受不好。無論他們是誰，有多麼難以相處，在他們心中都希望感受良好。意思是，生活對他們而言可以不要那麼困難。所以正如我希求快樂而不要痛苦一樣，每個人都是希求快樂而不要痛苦的。
That empathy for all beings, as we meet them, is also a very essential part of any spiritual path. And certainly of Buddhism. That we cultivate wish for the happiness and wellbeing of everyone, not just humans. What I really like about dharma is that it includes all beings, all living beings, not just the ones we like; or our nation, our football team, everybody is included in this. And that includes all the animals who, as you said, like to be happy, right?
遇到各類眾生時，對他們生起同理心，也是任何修道中非常關鍵的一部分。佛教當然也是如此。我們要培養希求所有眾生獲得快樂與福祉的願心，而不僅是人類。我喜歡佛法的地方，其實就在於它包含了所有眾生，並非只有我們喜歡的人，或者我們的國家、我們的足球隊，而是任何人、任何生物都包含在內。這也包含所有的動物，正如你所說的，牠們也想要快樂，對吧？
I mean animals want be happy just as we want to be happy. And their idea of happiness is on a more physical level usually, but they also want to be loved. They also want to be appreciated. I mean, we’re all animals.
我的意思是，動物正如我們人類一樣，也希望得到快樂。而且，牠們對快樂的概念，通常更多是在身體層面，但牠們也一樣希望被愛。牠們也希望受到珍視。我的意思是，我們都是動物。
Scott Snibbe: Thank you so much sharing your wisdom in this discussion today, it is really a privilege speaking with you. Thanks for taking that time with us.
Scott Snibbe：非常感謝您在今天的討論中分享了您的智慧。與您交談，真是一種殊榮。感謝您抽出時間來與我們交談。
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo: Thank you, Scott.
傑尊瑪丹津．葩默：感謝Scott.
Scott Snibbe: Thanks for joining us for our conversation with Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo. If you’re interested to learn more about her teaching and support her activities, visit her webpage at tenzinpalmo.com.
Scott Snibbe：謝謝觀眾加入我們與傑尊瑪丹津．葩默的交談。如果您想學習更多她的法教並護持她的事業，請訪問她的主頁：tenzinpalmo.com.。
～圖文出處：
～普賢法譯小組Heidi翻譯 / Linda, Joy & Serena校對，願一切吉祥！
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