資深佛法譯者Erik Pema Kunsang與年輕譯者之間的問答（二）
Q&A For Young Translators with Erik Pema Kunsang
前一篇：https://serenalotus.pixnet.net/blog/post/578151776
21:38
Q: I had a desire to enter into a guru-disciple relationship, but I’m also scared to totally surrender myself. How can I work on that fear?
我渴望與上師建立關係，但卻對全然臣服感到害怕。請問我該如何處理這份恐懼？
It’s very easy. It’s too early if you had that feeling. Just forget about it for now. Learn about what the dharma is really about. And then later, when you need guidance, it will happen. Don't worry about that. And as a matter of fact, you don’t have to surrender in a dualistic way. It’s too early and maybe also unnecessary. Because who is the other person? Who is the guru? We don’t know. What if it’s a bandit? A bank robber and said “You follow me, and then buy a gun, and then do what I do, and you’ll be freed.” you may end up behind bars in a prison, not so good idea. So fear in this context is a sign of intelligence. Alright? Don’t surrender your intelligence. Use it to find out reality.
這很簡單。會出現這種感覺，就表示你的時機未到。目前先別管這件事，好好學習佛法真正的意涵。過些時候，當你需要引導的時候，它就會發生，無需為此煩心。事實上，你不必以二元對立的方式來臣服。這表示不僅時機未到、甚至也不必要。因為，那個人到底會是誰？你的上師是誰？我們無法知道。萬一是個強盜？他可能是個搶匪，還告訴你：「跟著我，買把槍，學我做就對了，然後你就會解脫。」最後你可能落得坐牢的下場，這可不是個好主意。因此，在這個情境中，你的恐懼是一種智慧的徵兆。對吧？你不該交出或放棄自己的智慧，而要用它來找出實相。
And here I’d like to say something about dharma studies. Because Dharma Gyan is to gain understanding about what is real -- Dharma Gyan, understanding reality. It is possible that we believe that studying a text is called “dharma study”. I’d like to edit that statement. We are not studying a text for the dharma. We study reality with the help of a text, with the help of a teacher. But main thing to understand is REALITY.
在此，我想談談學佛這件事。因為Dharma Gyan就是要去理解事情的真相，而Dharma Gyan便是「理解實相」。我們可能認為研讀經文就稱為「學佛」。我想調整一下這個說法。我們不是在為了佛法而研讀經文。我們是藉由文本和老師的協助，來探究實相。真正要去了解的，是實相。
Reality has 2 parts: the perceived, and the perceiver, to make it very simple. Even though in Abhidharma there are so many details, and lists and categories. In short, can be comprised, condensed into just 2 parts—what we experience and that which experiences, which is ourselves. That is what we need to find out what that reality of every moment of experience really is: What is it that we perceive, what is it that perceives?
用非常簡單的方式來說，實相（現實、實際）由兩個部分構成：所知及能知。雖然《阿毘達摩俱舍論》中有許多細節、條列及分類，但都可濃縮成兩個部分，也就是我們所經驗到的，以及那個經驗者，後者亦即我們自身。這是我們必須去發現的：每一刻所經驗的那個「實相」究竟是什麼，也就是每一刻所感知的是什麼、能感知的是什麼。
And here the first tool of this study of reality is questioning, curiosity, “what is it? “what is it?” “what is that really?” Not make believe what other people have told and learning old opinions, other people’s opinions by heart, not like that. But you being intelligent and curious studying what is it that is being experienced, what is it that experiences. “WHAT?” That is intelligent studying.
探究實相的首要工具，就是質疑與好奇：「這是什麼？」「這是什麼？」「那究竟是什麼？」不要輕易相信人們所說的話，也不要謹記著過往的意見、他人的意見，都別這樣。你必須帶著智慧、保持好奇，去探究所經驗的是什麼、能經驗的是什麽。「到底是什麼？」這才是具有智慧的探究方式。
And then we can use a text that illuminates that, if it illuminates it. Maybe it’s a text that leads in completely away from that. That’s possible. But that’s the duty of your teacher to make sure that to bring it home to your present moment of experience. You can always say “what does this have to do with my moment of being conscious right now?” that’s a good question to ask. If the study is taking your attention too far away, bring it back. A good teacher will always bring it back to the present moment. This is how Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche is always taught, that all of the buddha’s 84,000 sections of the dharma, direct instructions on how to free this mind from self-centeredness and from unknowing. Both of this self-centeredness the first, unknowing, the more inner, more vital point.
接著，可以運用闡述相關內涵的文本，當然這是指確實有所闡述的文本──因為有些文本可能使我們完全遠離這個方向。這是有可能的。不過這就是老師的職責所在：他必須確實將我們帶回家、回到當下的經驗。你隨時都要這麼問：「這和我在當下保持覺知，有什麼關係？」這是個好問題。如果這種探究方式反而使你分心，就把自己帶回來。一位好老師，會隨時把我們的心帶回當下。這也是確吉尼瑪仁波切向來所教導的：佛陀的八萬四千法門，都是關乎如何讓這個心脫離自我中心和不了知中的直接教誡。先［處理的部分］是自我中心，不了知（無明）則屬於較內在、更至關要緊的部分。
If some of you don't feel Erik is not going through the questions why is he wasting our time, if you feel like this just switch off your video and walk off. I won't care because I'm going to talk about what I want to talk about.
假使你們有人覺得Erik沒有在回答清單上的問題，幹嘛浪費我們的時間等等，可以關掉視訊離開，我不會介意。因為我會依照自己所想談的來進行回應。
27:30
Q: Next question, How do we structure a practice session around a sutra?
要如何以經文來進行一座修持，它的架構應該包含什麼？
First, adjust your motivation, to be less centered or completely without selfishness. We do that by making a substitute for normal habit of “I need”, “I want this knowledge” and “I need to get it” by chanting. Substitute that with a different attitude. It is important to understand reality so that this mind can benefit, and help and alleviate the troubles of all minds, infinite minds. And therefore, I will chant this sutra. That adjustment of attitude is step No. 1 in chanting a sutra. Cause then you have already, you have already made it into dharma practice from the beginning even before chanting “Thus I have heard,” already vacated self-centeredness into altruistic bodhisattva attitude, which is something very beautiful.
首先，要調整動機，少一點自我中心、或者完全放下自私的心態。方法是藉由持誦經文，來取代通常那種「我需要」、「我想獲得這些知識」、「我需要得到這個」的習氣。要以不同的態度來進行。理解實相是很重要的，藉此可利益這個心，進而幫助並減輕種種的心、無盡的心所擁有的困擾。因此，我要以這種方式來讀誦佛經。這種態度的調整，是讀誦經文的第一步。如此一來，你才能在一開始，即使在讀誦「如是我聞……」之前，就放下自我中心，轉而以菩薩的利他態度，真正進入佛法的修持，而這樣的態度是非常美妙的。
Then you look at the text, and you don’t immediately chant. First let this attention, this mind, this awareness, this conscious quality that we all are, allow it to settle into itself for a few moments. You can do that with a breathing, letting go at the end of the outbreath. (gently exhale ~) And then lower your gaze down to the page.
接下來，你看著經文，但不要立即讀誦。先讓注意力、這個心、這份覺知、我們每個人都具備的覺察特質，允許它於自身中安頓一會兒。你可以藉由一次吸氣、在呼氣的最後放開（Erik緩緩呼氣～）來這麼作，接著再將目光向下移至書頁。
The 16th Karmapa would always had his text up at the same height of his head, a table upon a table. His book will be up here, so he didn’t have to sit like this. Like a crane, or some kind of a digging machine. He would sit in a dignified way as a buddha. So when you read loud the sutra, you are declaring the same words as used by the Buddha and his companions of Mahabodhisattvas, bodhisattvas, shravakas, arhats and so forth.… this is very dignified script for a theater. You are allow to sit with your head up, your face up, so that you can declare sublime messages sent from the past into the present moment of your consciousness. This is something wonderful and meaningful. Alright? You understand?
第十六世大寶法王會疊兩張桌子，讓法本就在與頭部同高的位置，如此他的法本會在上面，而不需要像起重機或挖土機那樣垂著頭。法王的坐姿如佛陀般莊嚴。當你大聲持誦經文時，你其實是在宣講佛陀與隨侍在側的大菩薩、菩薩、聲聞、阿羅漢等所說過的話。這是非常莊嚴的場景。你可以抬頭端坐、臉朝前方，將過去的崇高訊息傳送到你當下的覺知中。這是非常美好且有意義的。對吧？諸位明白嗎？
That is the second important point: read with dignity and presence of mind. Being in the company of the buddha and great bodhisattvas, and all the great masters of the lineage who’ve carried this text into your life over the course of 2500 years, but much longer than that. Because when the buddha taught he often repeated teachings verbatim that he had learned in previous lifetimes, far far back into the past, countless eons ago. And which was in the sublime humility that he didn’t invent this. He repeated what he had learned from as many teachers and buddhas as there’re grains of sands in the River Ganges. How many do you think that are? Many. He studied with not only one teacher. Only one? Not like that. He had countless teachers that he learned from and served with great respect and appreciation.
這是第二個重點：以莊重且當下的心來讀誦。於佛陀、大菩薩、所有傳承大師們的伴隨下，他們將2500年前、甚至更久遠之前的經文帶到你的生命中。當佛陀在教導時，他往往是逐字重述自己在過去好幾個生世所學習的法教，遠遠可以溯及無量劫以前。而這正是佛陀崇高的謙遜所在，因為那些法教都不是他發明的。佛陀重述自己由量等恆河沙數的老師和諸佛所習得的法教。你們認為那個數量是多少呢？很多，佛陀不只從學於一位老師。僅只一位？不是的。佛陀曾向無數的老師學習，並以極大的恭敬與感恩來承事他們。
So that in the life when he became a supreme Nirmanakaya, he could share all that knowledge, with whoever was present and also to people who become present in the future, which is you. When you chant a sutra, and all the ones who can hear the sound of your voice. The sutra is not to be read like a crime novel, silent, by lying down, you almost fallen asleep. You read it while you’re awake and present and from the innermost heart, really really kind. The kindness for everyone who can hear this directly or indirectly. And also may it saturate your being so that every action in your life may be saturated with the meaning of this sutra. Like throwing a pebble into a pond with the rings of benefit spread infinitely in all directions. That was part No. 2.
也因此，在他成為無上化身佛的那一生，才得以向當時和未來的人們，也就是現在的諸位，分享他的所知所聞。當我們持誦經文時，還包括所有能聽見我們聲音的眾生。讀經不該像是在看犯罪小說，安靜地躺下而讀到快睡著那樣。你應該是在清醒的時候，從內心深處、帶著覺知與極大的慈心來持誦。那份慈心的對象，是一切可直接或間接聽聞到的眾生。同時祈願，如此的慈心能充滿你的相續，讓自己生命中的所作所為，也能充滿著經文的要義。這就像將石子拋入池塘而濺起漣漪那樣，其利益也能向十方無盡擴散。這是第二個部分。
Attitude adjustment, chanting with dignity, and then at the end spend a little while, just letting the meaning of this settle into your system. Store in your invisible hard drive. Um, nobody has that anymore. RAM drive. And: “what was actually said here?” ”what was the meaning?” “how does it untie the knots on reality? ” And then conclude with the third part which is make a sincere decision and wish that “may the meaning of this, that has penetrated this mind, be a benefit and help every mind to be untied the knots of self-centeredness”. Because that is so needed. Every mind wants to be at ease, but without knowing how, pain and trouble could be endless. But this is a way to stop it, to bring an end to samsara. May it be so for everyone.
調整態度、以莊重的心來持誦，並在最後花一點時間，讓整個意涵進入你的相續而安住，將它們儲存在你的無形硬碟裡，現在都沒人擁有RAM這種硬碟了。接著［思惟］：「這裡說的，究竟是什麼意思？」「它的意義是什麼？」「它如何解開（我）對實相的綑縛？」結行、也就是第三步，則以真誠的決心而希求：「願這份深入此心的意涵，利益並幫助每一個心，解開自我中心的綑縛。」如此是非常必要的。因為所有的心都想要獲得安適，但若不知該怎麼做，痛苦和困擾將會永無止盡。而這就是打斷這種進程並且終結輪迴的方式之一。祈願大家都能如此。
35:04
Okay, that was question number two. Next question.
好，這是第二個問題。下一題。
Q: How to maintain motivation and practice in difficult times in society and on planet Earth? How to deal with hopelessness given that the world has seemed to not work out?
要如何在社會、地球遭遇困境時，依然持守發心並繼續修行？對於「世界似乎不會［如我所願而］好轉」所帶來的無望感，又該如何處理？
I'll tell you a secret. The world has never worked out. It's not something new. The world, whatever that is, you find out what you mean by the word “world” is never reliable. It's always disappointing. Disappointing. Yeah. You cannot buy shares and stocks and shares in the world and expect it to give an outcome that is satisfactory. So forget that. Forget expecting the world to be a perfect place where everything will work out and be beautiful.
告訴大家一個秘密。這個世界從來都不曾如我們所願。這不是什麼新消息。這個世界，不管它所指為何，你會發現所謂的「世界」，這個字詞從來都不可靠。它總是令人失望。是的，令人失望。你不可能購買這個世界的股份和股票，還期待從中獲得令人滿意的成果。所以，別管這個了。不要期待世界可成為一個完美的地方，認為一切都會好轉、一切都會美妙。
As a matter of fact, there will never be peace in the world. So, forget world peace, won't happen. Spend time on something more realistic. Inner peace as often as possible, as long-lasting as possible. That is possible. External peace is impossible.
事實上，世界和平是不可能發生的。所以別去想世界和平了，不會有的。把時間放在比較實際的事情上吧，盡可能多讓內在得以和平，並讓那份和平盡可能長久，這是有可能發生的。外在的和平，則是不可能的。
Then we should have summer, in Denmark, we like summer. I don't know about other countries could be too hot. Maybe we will have autumn all the time, but it won't happen. Everything changes. There's nothing reliable to expect or to hope for. So when you feel hopeless, it's because you placed your trust in something which is hopeless. So forget it. Turn your mind inward.
否則，我們在丹麥都喜歡夏天，就該擁有夏天。我不清楚其他國家的夏天，可能會太過炎熱。也許我們該整年都是秋天，但那是不可能的。世事無常。沒有任何可靠的事情能讓你期望或希求。你會感到無望，是因為你將信任建立在無望的事物之上。所以別再這麼做了，轉心向內吧。
And at the end of the outbreath [吐氣], allow a short gap of true peace for just a few seconds. That is something you can trust. And then next saturate that with kindness. Not only peace, but peace with kindness. Otherwise peace is, I wouldn't say useless, but not very deep.
在吐氣的最後（Erik示範吐氣），保留幾秒鐘的短暫間隙，讓真正的和平停駐。這是你可以信任的。接著以慈心充滿那個間隙。那就不只是和平，而是帶有慈心的和平。否則，儘管我不會說那種和平毫無用處，但就是不夠深切。
38:18
Next, it's question number nine.
接下來，是第九個問題。
It can be hard as a youth because it's easy to procrastinate, meaning delay, and feel you have lots of time. Despite my meditation on impermanence, I still feel as if I have a whole lifetime to practice. How do I cultivate a sense of urgency with practicing dharma?
這件事對青少年來說可能很難，我們很容易會拖拖拉拉，意思是延遲，覺得自己還有大把時間，雖然我有在禪修無常，但這種「還有大半輩子可修持」的感覺仍揮之不去。我該如何培養關於修持佛法的迫切感呢？
This is not your problem. This is everyone's problem. So let's play with giving yourself a death sentence. You know, when somebody is about to be executed, they get one last meal early in the morning and then they know there is no more meals after this. This is the end. They've already said goodbye to family and friends. The only person allowed in now is maybe the lawyer or priest, whatever the country is. But otherwise, you are by yourself. You try to eat that your favorite meal while with tears in the eyes because maybe you loved life. Let's just admit we love to be alive and do things.
這不是你的問題。這是所有人的問題。我們不如來演一齣「判自己死刑」的戲。各位都知道，當一個人即將被處死之際，會在當天一早吃完此生的最後一餐，而且心知肚明那頓飯後不會再有下一餐。一切都結束了。也和親友說了再見。無論在哪個國家，此刻被允許陪在身邊的，可能只剩下律師或牧師。除此之外，就只能獨自待著。你試著咀嚼你最愛的食物、卻熱淚盈眶，因為你也許還愛著生命。承認吧，我們都渴望活著、也熱愛做點什麼。
But it's impossible because now at 6:00 as the sun rises, my neck will be cut. I'll be hung, injected, gassed, electrocuted, whatever the favorite way of killing people is in the in your country. Some places they're a little more humane. They just shoot you and it's over in a second. A bullet in the neck, you won't even know what's going on. But now, some countries they like to drag it out so that you have to walk all the way up onto a stage, and then the rope around your neck, and then somebody reads loud your crimes, and then slowly then they say now we are going to do it.
但此刻一切都不可能了。因為當六點一到、旭日初昇。我的脖子就要被砍了。我會被吊起來、注射藥劑、噴入毒氣或遭受電刑，端看各位所在的國家最常使用的死刑方式。稍稍有點人性的國家可能會直接給你一槍，不用一秒鐘就結束了，子彈會射進你的脖子。你甚至不知道怎麼一回事。但現在有些國家並非如此，他們喜歡拉長整個過程，你得一路步行，走上（絞刑）台，接著會有繩子繞住你的脖子，有人會大聲宣讀你的罪行，然後緩緩地宣佈：我們要執行死刑了。
You get a sack over your head so you can't see what's going on, but it's mainly for other people so that they can't see that you vomit or cry or go blue and red and white, whatever. Then the floor opens and you drop down. If it's a kind way of doing it. Otherwise, you just hang there for a long time. But the main part is “today is your last day.” There is no more. Get used to that idea that today is possibly my last day. What do I want to use my last day on?
你的頭會被套上一個布袋，讓你看不到一切的經過；但那個布袋主要是為了保護眾人、防止他們看到你嘔吐、哭泣、臉色由青轉紅再轉白等等的過程。接著地板開啟，你掉了下去。這是其中一種比較仁慈的做法，不然你就直接被吊在那邊很久。這裡的重點是，今天就是你的最後一天了。再也沒有多一天的生命。我們要習慣想著：今天可能就是我的最後一天。我想把我的最後一天拿來做什麼呢？
For me, I want to scroll through Facebook Reels one more time, because there could be something really important there, more important than anything else in the world. Or it could be I'll take a walk and look at the landscape, because there could be some feeling it gives that some memory of peace through the natural environment. For some it could be all right. I'll sit and face the wall like Bodhidharma and know reality beyond subject and object.
嗯，我想要再滑一下臉書的短影音，因為那上面可能有很多真正重要的事情，比世界上其他事情都重要的多！或者，嗯，我想去散散步、看看風景，因為透過自然環境，可能會帶來記憶中一些平靜的感覺。對有些人來說，可能覺得還好，就只想要像達摩祖師那樣面壁靜坐，了知超越能所（主體和客體）的實相。
For some it could be I'll sing a song, play my flute or guitar or sitar, whatever we have as our favorite and most meaningful way of being. But today I'll make this day count because tomorrow morning at dawn, I'll be executed. Last breath. This is how to, I won't call it meditate on impermanence. Because that, I'm sorry to say, it's a wrong translation. One doesn't meditate on impermanence. One grows familiar with the fact that nothing lasts. Growing familiar with reality is that nothing lasts. This body will not last. The mind, the quality of what is behind every conscious moment, that quality of knowing, is not made out of anything, and can therefore continue.
有些人可能會唱唱歌、吹吹笛子、彈彈吉他或西塔琴，就看他覺得怎樣是自己最喜歡、最有意義的方式。但無論如何，因為明天一早即將被處死，一定要讓這一天過得有意義。就剩最後一口氣了。我不會將此稱為「禪修無常」，很抱歉這麼說，但這個翻譯並不正確。不是要禪修無常，而是要對「沒有任何事情可以長久」的這個事實越來越熟悉。要串習這個一切都不長久的實相。身體不會長久。而這個心，在每個覺知片刻背後的特質、那種了知的特質，並非由任何東西所構成，則因而得以持續。
Cannot be destroyed. Never arose. That is what to count on. Being face to face with reality, free of concept of subject and object. That is how to train in impermanence in the ultimate way. The great master Padampa Sangye he said “familiarizing yourself with the fact of impermanence that nothing lasts will make you enter what is meaningful and true—the dharma. Next, it will make you persevere, and finally it will make you realize what is true and real Dharmata.”
無可摧滅，從未生起。這才是可靠的。要直接看到實相、那離於能所分別的狀態，這才是訓練我們面對無常的究竟方式。偉大的帕當巴桑傑曾說：「讓自己對一切都不長久的無常事實越來越熟悉，能使你進入具義且真實的事情，也就是法。然後，這份熟悉會使你堅持不懈，終而使你了悟何為真實且真切的法性（Dharmata）。」
So contemplating and reflecting on, and becoming familiar with the fact that nothing lasts is very very useful. Especially when a horrible criminal who is you, dharma student feel “I'm not doing like old time dharma practitioners.” “I haven't really been able to push myself as much as they push themselves.” So then one feels bad all the time because of not being an adequate practitioner. That is called self-torture. It's not dharma study.
因此，要善加思量、深思並熟悉「一切皆不長久」的事實，如此效益極大。尤其是你們這些佛法學生，會覺得自己是某種可怖的罪犯：「我做得不如過去的佛法行者」、「我一直沒辦法像他們那樣大力鞭策自己」，因而總是認為自己很糟糕，只因為沒能成為一個「夠格的行者」。這叫做自我虐待，並不是學習佛法。
Then there's what is the meaning of empowerment? We'll keep that for another time.
接下來的問題是「灌頂的意義是什麼？」我們之後再來談這個。
~ 待續
~ 普賢法譯小組 Liying 翻譯 / Serena 校對，祈願一切賢善吉祥！
